Forums: Rules Questions: Channel while Paralyzed? (2024)

Simple question - when paralyzed, a character can take purely mental actions. Is Channelling Positive Energy purely mental?

Does the answer change if your holy symbol is worn on an item, like a Wayfinder, or on a shield?

YogoZuno wrote:

Simple question - when paralyzed, a character can take purely mental actions. Is Channelling Positive Energy purely mental?

Does the answer change if your holy symbol is worn on an item, like a Wayfinder, or on a shield?

These lines from the rules suggest no

paralyzed "unable to move or act"

Channel "This is a standard action"

Channel "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability"

having your symbol visible is not the same as presenting it. GM could also simply rule that the position you were in when you were paralyzed partially concealed your holy symbol thus it is not fully presented.

You missed a very important part of Paralyzed there, Phasics.

'A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.'

You can still take actions, so long as they are mental. Thus my question. 'able to present' is not exactly unambiguous - if I'm paralyzed with my holy symbol held out, is that able to present?

I have a cleric who's holy symbol is tattooed on his face. Unless he's wearing a mask, he's always Presenting it.

So, for cases like mine where the Holy Symbol is always presented, can a Cleric Channel while Paralyzed?

Broken down further, the question becomes "Discounting presenting a holy symbol, is Channeling a Physical Action?"

YogoZuno wrote:

Simple question - when paralyzed, a character can take purely mental actions. Is Channelling Positive Energy purely mental?

Does the answer change if your holy symbol is worn on an item, like a Wayfinder, or on a shield?

Metagaming again.

YogoZuno wrote:

Simple question - when paralyzed, a character can take purely mental actions. Is Channelling Positive Energy purely mental?

No, the character must present her Holy Symbol, which is a deliberate physical action.

YogoZuno wrote:

Does the answer change if your holy symbol is worn on an item, like a Wayfinder, or on a shield?

No, nor if it's marked on a body part. Just because creatures can see it doesn't mean the character has presented it.

Presentation is a physical act?

How is this represented in RAW?

EvilMinion wrote:

What if you're an oracle with channel, that doesn't need a holy symbol?

Then you are fine.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

EvilMinion wrote:

What if you're an oracle with channel, that doesn't need a holy symbol?

Then you are fine.

My GM started grumbling when I explained that there was nothing stopping my Oracle from channeling while shapeshifted as a bird. He wouldn't let me take Natural Spell though when I asked ;p

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Presentation is a physical act?

How is this represented in RAW?

RAW, or at least the PRD, doesn't define the term "present a holy symbol" any further, except that it seems definite that it's usually a standard action (Quick Channel provides an exception, as feats often do) and likely that it must be strongly presented to work.

The dictionary suggests relevant meanings to show, to offer, to bring to someone's attention, to demand that a thing be accepted. These are incompatible with a mere passive state of visibility. Since the symbol is a physical object, not some sort of telepathic impression, I can't see how this strong and demanding action could be other than physical.

Starglim wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Presentation is a physical act?

How is this represented in RAW?

RAW, or at least the PRD, doesn't define the term "present a holy symbol" any further, except that it seems definite that it's usually a standard action and likely that it must be strongly presented to work.

Clerics must present their holy symbol in order to cast spells or channel. Both casting and channeling are (normally) a standard action. So presenting a holy symbol generally is not a standard action as that would require two standards per round.

The redcap and vampire have specific rules regarding the use of holy symbols that allow additional options when dealing with such creatures. These cases though are an exception to presenting a holy symbol, not the base rule for doing so. Presenting a holy symbol is a non-action in the same way knocking an arrow to the bow is a non-action when attacking with said bow - that is presenting it is part of casting the spell or channeling.

The rules are not clear on whether this non-action of presenting the symbol requires the ability to physically more or not.

YogoZuno wrote:

'A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.'

Interesting. Where's the source this line is printed because I couldn't find it in the SRD. This would also seem to solve the question about whether a character affected by Hold Person could delay, and then act after a companion was able to cast Dispel Magic.

Edit: Pathfinder seemed to have changed the description of paralyze from the 3.5 SRD. If so, I think then the meaning of this has to be reinterpreted.

So, Silent/Still Spell is yes, but Channel is no?

Channel is Supernatural, and can even be done in Rage, but not when Paralyzed?

I don't think so.

To present something seems to be in line with draw attention to, otherwise it would just have to be visible so no channeling while paralyzed.

As a general point of interpreting rules instructions are not generally flavor text. I want to say never, there may be an exception, and even if there is not right now, there may be one later.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, Oracle is fine.

Does the oracle get free pass on the holy symbol? I hope so, but I guess I can check.

Quote:

Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

There is no wording saying the oracle is exempt from the cleric's need for a holy symbol to channel. Yeah I know oracles don't need them for spells, but even under the cleric class the need to have them for channeling is called out separately, so the need to not have them for oracles should also be called out separately.

Is that RAI? I don't know, and I would not bother with it in my games unless Paizo came down and said it was RAI, but it is RAW for all of you that play PFS.

That's weird.

An Oracle can be a straight up Atheist.

What kind of Holy Symbol do they require?

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That's weird.

An Oracle can be a straight up Atheist.

What kind of Holy Symbol do they require?

Probably something representing their 'mystery'.

Clerics don't need to be dedicated to a deity either remember, so I'd expand and use the same concept of 'holy symbol' from there. Someone who is dedicated to law might have a holy symbol of scales or a alike.

Unless you want alignment clerics not channelling or using spells that require a divine focus / holy symbol.

Yeah, but those are Clerics that are worshiping something, even if it's just an ideal.

An Oracle can be a straight up Nihilist with no interest in anything beyond itself.

The very idea of a Holy/Unholy symbol that represents that is beyond odd.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That's weird.

An Oracle can be a straight up Atheist.

What kind of Holy Symbol do they require?

If it is RAI then something they have faith in I would guess, even if it is not religious. But I do hope the RAW is not RAI, since it would not make sense to me for it to be required.

Oracles get a specific rider that allows them to ignore holy symbols in their spellcasting

Quote:

Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components.

For the one oracle mystery that has the option to gain channel, does not seem a stretch to assume this applies there as well.

As bbt says, if they can explictly ignore the divine focus requirements for everything else due to not really being worshippers of any god... not a huge leap to assume for this as well (certainly would seem RAI).

EvilMinion wrote:

Oracles get a specific rider that allows them to ignore holy symbols in their spellcasting

Quote:

Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components.

For the one oracle mystery that has the option to gain channel, does not seem a stretch to assume this applies there as well.

As bbt says, if they can explictly ignore the divine focus requirements for everything else due to not really being worshippers of any god... not a huge leap to assume for this as well (certainly would seem RAI).

I agree, that is why I ignore it in my games, but if I ran a PFS game I could not ignore it.

YogoZuno wrote:

Simple question - when paralyzed, a character can take purely mental actions. Is Channelling Positive Energy purely mental?

Does the answer change if your holy symbol is worn on an item, like a Wayfinder, or on a shield?

There are 3 things to consider:

1) Channel Energy explicitly has the following requirement:

Quote:

A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.

This implies a specific action that has to be taken. This triggered the argument about what it means to "present" a holy symbol, so let's dig a bit deeper.

2) The paralyzed condition states that "mental actions" can be taken:

Quote:

He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.

Note that under Conditions, the description does NOT mention the ability to cast spells with no components, but let's ignore that fact since both definitions can be RAW.

With these rules in mind, we must consider what a holy symbol is, what it means to "present it" and perhaps we can draw on some other context in the game...

3) The holy symbol is a "component" in any other context (as a divine focus for clerical spell casting).

Quote:

Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Focus (F): A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.

Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.

This means, as a component, the divine focus (the holy symbol) must be handled. Though it's RAI, it's reasonable to impose this restriction on the paralyzed character. In ANY OTHER CONTEXT the character's holy symbol is a component, and the paralyzed condition specifically prohibits spells with components, thus I would disallow channeling while paralyzed.

EDIT: A little further reflection, as written, the divine focus must be a "holy symbol." The "holy symbol" is a specific piece of equipment in the Equipment section of the core rules. It is not, RAW, a painting on someone's shield or a tattoo on their forehead. Any of these "optional foci" are between the GM and the player, and not in the core rules. Thus, the "holy symbol" is a specific physical object, a component, which the cleric must be able to present (presumably "handle") when channeling. Any other version of the holy symbol is not RAW and must, therefore, be handled outside of the rules in these situations.

So, GMs, if you're going to let your players have creative holy symbols, you'll have to also be prepared to make a ruling outside of RAW when your paralyzed cleric wants to channel energy. My suggestion is to NOT allow it - apply the same limitations any other cleric would have and not allow a "special holy symbol" to grant the PC "special abilities" (such as channeling while paralyzed).

Xaratherus wrote:

There's one RAW non-'material' holy symbol of which I can think - the birthmark provided by the religious trait of the same name.

Good find! I would still require the PC to "present it" when using it. It's a birthmark, I would argue it doesn't automatically have to be in an obvious spot, or appear as an obvious symbol. An upside-down ankh on a character's butt-cheek would make for some interesting role playing, to be sure, but would still require them to "present it" when using it. ;)

In other words, I wouldn't let the birthmark provide any special privilege (like being able to channel while paralyzed) beyond what is defined in the trait.

Red Wullf wrote:

Xaratherus wrote:

There's one RAW non-'material' holy symbol of which I can think - the birthmark provided by the religious trait of the same name.

Good find! I would still require the PC to "present it" when using it. It's a birthmark, I would argue it doesn't automatically have to be in an obvious spot, or appear as an obvious symbol. An upside-down ankh on a character's butt-cheek would make for some interesting role playing, to be sure, but would still require them to "present it" when using it. ;)

In other words, I wouldn't let the birthmark provide any special privilege (like being able to channel while paralyzed) beyond what is defined in the trait.

The GM could still rule it has to be presented in some manner. If it is on his hand maybe he has to open his palm toward the enemy. That might be a good compromise.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Metagaming again.

I wouldn't have said so. I was actually trying to work around being taken out of an encounter on the first round of it...funny how boring it is when you can't do anything for an entire encounter.

Ari Kanen wrote:

Where's the source this line is printed

Copied from the Paralysis entry in the Glossary of the PRD, under Special Abilities.

Red Wullf wrote:

This means, as a component, the divine focus (the holy symbol) must be handled.

I don't see anything in those quotes about having to be able to touch or manipulate a Material component, Focus or otherwise. Of course, that really doesn't make sense - if you didn't have to touch a Material Component, you could just annihilate some object in your vicinity to cast spells.

For what it's worth, the DM ruled no on the night, and I was happy to abide by that. Just thought it wouldn't hurt to check the consensus, inc ase we'd missed something concrete.

Red Wullf wrote:

...An upside-down ankh on a character's butt-cheek would make for some interesting role playing, to be sure, but would still require them to "present it" when using it...

Yeah, mine is on the webbing between two of my toes.

Getting back to the original point: No. You cannot channel while you're paralyzed. Is this that blasted, fuzzy "purely mental actions" clause coming into play again? I'm going to petition Paizo to go round to every CRB, use a razor blade to cut that phrase out of every copy, and petition NASA to shoot a rocket containing all the removed text into the sun.

Red Wullf wrote:

An upside-down ankh on a character's butt-cheek would make for some interesting role playing, to be sure, but would still require them to "present it" when using it. ;)

Great, now I need to roll a halfling Cleric of a chaotic god and do this...

"What do you mean, 'Indecent exposure'?! Have you SEEN my butt? Besides, I was just preparing to do my god's work!"

Ari Kanen wrote:

YogoZuno wrote:

'A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.'

Interesting. Where's the source this line is printed because I couldn't find it in the SRD. This would also seem to solve the question about whether a character affected by Hold Person could delay, and then act after a companion was able to cast Dispel Magic.

Edit: Pathfinder seemed to have changed the description of paralyze from the 3.5 SRD. If so, I think then the meaning of this has to be reinterpreted.

No. This was explained several times, as Hold Person is NOT simply Paralyzed.

Other than the Holy Symbol part, it's not an issue, but yes, the "present a holy symbol" does seem to mean No.

YogoZuno wrote:

'A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.'

I know you said you got this from the PRD under the Paralysis entry in the glossary, but I cannot see this wording.

I see: "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through."

Souchiro wrote:

SU states there is an "action" done. SP states they are purely mental.

Where are you seeing this? Under the Universal Monster rules for Spell-Like Abilities I see where it says there are "no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components" but I do not see where it is purely mental. In fact under the action chart in the combat section it shows activating either a Spell-Like ability or a Supernatural ability is a standard action. That obviously rules them out for someone held with Hold Person but it does not specify whether this is a mental action that could be accomplished while paralyzed.

I could be wrong on both of these but I was just wondering where or what you both were reading or referencing.

@Hendelbolaf
Paralysis

Although a spell-like has no components it does provoke an AoO and I have a hard time seeing a "purely mental action" provoking an AoO.

wraithstrike wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, Oracle is fine.

Does the oracle get free pass on the holy symbol? I hope so, but I guess I can check.

Quote:

Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

There is no wording saying the oracle is exempt from the cleric's need for a holy symbol to channel. Yeah I know oracles don't need them for spells, but even under the cleric class the need to have them for channeling is called out separately, so the need to not have them for oracles should also be called out separately.

Is that RAI? I don't know, and I would not bother with it in my games unless Paizo came down and said it was RAI, but it is RAW for all of you that play PFS.

Since an atheist oracle would worship *nothing*, then their holy symbol would be *nothing*. So when they channel, they present *nothing*, ie, thin air, ie, they don't need a holy symbol.

thistledown wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, Oracle is fine.

Does the oracle get free pass on the holy symbol? I hope so, but I guess I can check.

Quote:

Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

There is no wording saying the oracle is exempt from the cleric's need for a holy symbol to channel. Yeah I know oracles don't need them for spells, but even under the cleric class the need to have them for channeling is called out separately, so the need to not have them for oracles should also be called out separately.

Is that RAI? I don't know, and I would not bother with it in my games unless Paizo came down and said it was RAI, but it is RAW for all of you that play PFS.

Since an atheist oracle would worship *nothing*, then their holy symbol would be *nothing*. So when they channel, they present *nothing*, ie, thin air, ie, they don't need a holy symbol.

Perhaps they need to physically represent their non-belief in some other way... Regardless, it comes across as a bit cheesy to attempt to circumvent a game mechanic with fluff, and it's impossible in PFS.

First off, I apologize for the incoming wall of text.

bbangerter wrote:

Clerics must present their holy symbol in order to cast spells or channel. Both casting and channeling are (normally) a standard action. So presenting a holy symbol generally is not a standard action as that would require two standards per round.

Your logic is sound but there is a loophole to the standard actions limit. Some standard actions silently grant a "free" specific standard action as part of their completion.

To better illustrate: A melee attack is a standard action. So is casting a spell. However, when a wizard casts shocking grasp he is allowed to make a "free" melee attack with it immediately upon completion of casting the spell.

In this way, if it is said that presenting a holy symbol would be a standard action, then casting a spell that requires a holy symbol would freely grant the act of presenting the symbol as part of spell completion.

That said, in my opinion the act of presenting an item would have to include some sort of physical act as you would be calling attention to the symbol. It would be like waving the holy symbol in front of you or thrusting it forward (so, for instance, if it was tattooed to your face as someone mentioned theirs was earlier they would thrust their head forward a bit as part of a channel or casting a spell, in which case it would look kinda cool to see the magic seem to shoot from the forehead) . I do not believe that just having a symbol visible would fulfill the requirement of presentation.

As far as atheistic clerics go...I'm not sure atheist is the right word as atheism is the rejection of the belief in deities which, in worlds like Golarion, is a stupid position for anybody to take seeing as how deities do obviously exist and a plane shift spell can prove it. It does say that a cleric can not be devoted to any one particular god, which to me says that in that case the cleric is devoted to a group, or pantheon if you will, of gods who are on at least good terms with one another (like, say, Serenrae and Iomedae), or some divine ideal worthy of devotion (such as justice or knowledge). In that case the cleric could have multiple holy symbols (for the multi-deity cleric) or some sort of symbol of their choosing representing their ideal (like a medallion of an open book to represent knowledge). If you want to try and relieve your cleric of needing a holy symbol then I would strongly suggest rolling oracle instead since many of the cleric spells require a holy symbol to cast and it specifically states that oracles don't need holy symbols to cast their spells whereas clerics do.

Think of it this way: a cleric is someone who chooses to worship either a deity (or deities) or an ideal and would thus have something (aka the holy symbol) that represents his devotion to that cause. Oracles, on the other hand, receive their powers whether they want them or not (indeed some oracles see their powers as a curse) and so, while they may venerate gods that share their ideals, they are not particularly beholden to any divine source.

How about if the channeler is holding a sanctified shield, which is a specific type of channel focus item?

Channel Foci wrote:

A channel focus is a garment or other object that incorporates a holy or unholy symbol, and has a special power when a member of that symbol’s religion channels energy through it. . . . The cleric can use the focus as a holy symbol (whether activated or not), though if it is a worn item rather than a held item she must touch the item with a free hand.

Mike Lindner wrote:

How about if the channeler is holding a sanctified shield, which is a specific type of channel focus item?

Channel Foci wrote:

A channel focus is a garment or other object that incorporates a holy or unholy symbol, and has a special power when a member of that symbol’s religion channels energy through it. . . . The cleric can use the focus as a holy symbol (whether activated or not), though if it is a worn item rather than a held item she must touch the item with a free hand.

I'd still have to rule that holding an item and presenting an item are two different things. To present an item isn't merely to hold it, but to almost call attention to it. I'm not saying the cleric has to hold it over his head and scream "THIS IS MY HOLY SYMBOL!". I mean, he COULD do that, and it would be comical, but also quite probably be fatal. What I am saying, though is that, in my opinion, there has to be some physical effort exerted as part of the spell/channel, be it waving the symbol all jedi mind trick-like or the classic fend off the vampire brandishing or even going so far as to quickly re-enact the Tom Cruse Oprah Winfrey couch incident, that you would not be able to do while paralyzed to make the magic work.

Thing is, that implies one could not Channel in Supernatural Darkness.

In fact, that implies line of sight, and others to hear them.

Now, when did the need for sight/hearing become required?

Do you need to be able to see/hear to Channel?

Do you need to be able to have others see/hear you to be effected by Channel?

thistledown wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, Oracle is fine.

Does the oracle get free pass on the holy symbol? I hope so, but I guess I can check.

Quote:

Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

There is no wording saying the oracle is exempt from the cleric's need for a holy symbol to channel. Yeah I know oracles don't need them for spells, but even under the cleric class the need to have them for channeling is called out separately, so the need to not have them for oracles should also be called out separately.

Is that RAI? I don't know, and I would not bother with it in my games unless Paizo came down and said it was RAI, but it is RAW for all of you that play PFS.

Since an atheist oracle would worship *nothing*, then their holy symbol would be *nothing*. So when they channel, they present *nothing*, ie, thin air, ie, they don't need a holy symbol.

I said nothing about worship. The holy symbol could represent their faith/support of/in something like freedom.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Thing is, that implies one could not Channel in Supernatural Darkness.

In fact, that implies line of sight, and others to hear them.

Now, when did the need for sight/hearing become required?

Do you need to be able to see/hear to Channel?

Do you need to be able to have others see/hear you to be effected by Channel?

That does not mean you are not presenting it.

You are presenting it even if everyone around you goes blind.

As an example you must strongly present a holy symbol to keep a vampire at bay. If he goes blind and he can't see you present it, that does not mean he can still approach you.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, now a Cleric must see, and hear, to Channel?

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. It is incorrect, and irrelevant to this thread, unless you are weaving some kind of Socratic snare that I'm not picking up on.

Or are you just trying to express your derision of the idea that presenting a holy symbol requires movement?

I don't understand. Can you explain what your point is? Because I'm not getting it.

It seems to me, that the more Channel is being analyzed here, there more is required to actually do it.

It's a Supernatural ability.

This means it's use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field).

Yet, we seem to try to find more and more ways to restrict this.

Even if they don't exist.

So where does "A cleric must see, and hear, to Channel?" come from?

I don't see anything anywhere that suggests this, but I see a lot that suggests a cleric must be able to move to present a holy symbol.